Okay, so I know it has been months since I have posted anything here, but I'm back because I have something to discuss. It is no secret that I am a huge fan of Christmas time, and some of my favorite parts of this season are the holiday specials featuring beloved cartoon characters. There's the Garfield Christmas, Charlie Brown Christmas, even Christmas in Pac-Land. However, one of the staples of the holiday season is the retelling of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol.
I love adaptations of A Christmas Carol. I love seeing how cartoon shows shove the contructs of their universes into the formula of the Dickens story. Some of them are awesome. Mickey's Christmas Carol and The Muppet Christmas Carol are among the best adaptations of the story. Then there are ones like The Jetsons Christmas Carol, The Flintstones Christmas Carol, and the mother of them all Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol. Now, I know there are animation historians who will argue with me on this, but Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol stinks. There is a lot to be said for Magoo. It was the first animated Christmas special. But being the first doesn't always mean being great by today's standards. It also has some funny moments. But there is one thing about the Magoo Christmas Carol that has me yelling at the TV screen every year: the major conceit of the Mr. Magoo Christmas Carol is that Mr. Magoo is in a stage production of A Christmas Carol, and what we are watching is tantamount to a recording of a live production.
I'm going to let that sink in for a moment.
Animation is a medium that is so limitless, its only boundaries are that of the artists' imaginations. Theatre is a medium that is so limiTED that one of its major tenants is "the willing suspension of disbelief." Why would you take a cartoon version of A Christmas Carol, and give it the same restrictions that a stage production would have?! Why would...? You could just... Why not...?
Breathe. Breathe. Breathe.
Why not just bind all cartoons with the limitations of the stage. Tweety Todd: the Deamon Birdie of Tweet Street. What about A Huckleberry Hamlet? "Ta be er not ta be, y'all. That's a dang good question." Or maybe Scooby Doo meets the cast of Rent. "Reasons of ru-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uv! Reasons of ru-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uv!"
Stupid. Magoo's Christmas Carol is really the only one that makes me angry, yet every year I watch it. Oh well. It's over now and I have the rest of Christmas to find solace in Yogi's First Christmas.
So I am back from my hiatus and raring to go. I start off with a return to the Duckiverse, which I left you with before my departure. Remember when I had such nice things to say about Kaboom Studios and their new Darkwing Duck Comics? Well, for all the nice things I had to say about the Darkwing Duck Comics, the new Ducktales Comics are awful.
First of all, the artwork is terrible. I don't know much about comics or comic artists. I don't know how hard it is to put a comic together. So that should mean that I shouldn't look at a comic and go, "We'll hell I could have made that." The continuity of character design is off, not only from the usual design of the character, but from panel to panel in cases. Also the backgrounds look like they were made in Microsoft Paint by a fifth grader. And that's insulting to fifth graders.
And the comedy is just lackluster at best. The thing about the Ducktales TV show, and Darkwing Duck, and hell even the old Duck comics, is that they weren't thought of as "for kids." They were funny, well written pieces, that kids happen to also enjoy. But the writing was sharp and original. Making cheap jokes and convoluted stories just because the comic is supposed to be a "kid's comic," is not true to the spirit at all.
I don't know maybe the thing will pick up, but for right now, I am thoroughly disappointed, and I'll stick to my Darwking Ducks for now, thank you, Kaboom Studios.
For today's Voice Actor Vriday, we salute one of my very favorite voice actors of all time Paul Frees. There is no chance that you have never heard Paul Frees' voice. In a career of over 40 years, Frees worked on more than 250 projects providing voices for some of the most memorable characters of all time. As film historian Hal Erickson says, "The voice of actor Paul Frees was not so much ubiquitous as inescapable. It was literally impossible during the 1960's and most of the 1970's to turn on the TV on any given night and not hear the ineluctable Mr. Frees." You would remember him as from characters as widely diverse as Bullwinkle and Rocky's nemesis Boris Badenov to the Little Green Sprout on the Jolly Green Giant commercials. Visitors to Disneyland know him as a third of the pirates on Pirates of the Caribbean, the narrator on Adventures Through Inner Space, and most notably as the ominous Ghost Host on the Haunted Mansion.
Not only was Frees is one of the most gifted voice actors of all time, he also had quite an interesting life outside of his acting career. Many of those stories are chronicled in the book Welcome...Foolish Mortals. While the book is a little light on entertainment value, it certainly packs in a lot of info.
While Frees deserves to be saluted on a Voice Actors Vriday for numerous reasons, he is here today because he has a connection to the Duckiverse. Frees provided the voice of my second favorite Duckiverse Denizen--second only to Darkwing Duck--Professor Ludwig von Drake.
Until Darkwing came along in the early nineties, von Drake was my favorite cartoon character as a kid. I remember watching reruns of the Wonderful World of Disney, and every time it was a von Drake episode, I would record it. I loved the character of this daffy philosopher/scientist/world traveler. Von Drake always seems to know a little bit about everything, but also is easily distracted or mistaken, kind of an Il Dottore for those who know their Commedia. (If you don't think a Commedia dell'Arte in the Duckiverse post is coming soon, you don't know me very well.)
Von Drake--oh, who am I kidding, Ludwig--appeared first in Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color in 1961 performing the Spectrum Song, but would eventually go on to be a popular character and often host of the show.
He became so popular that he moved into the Donald Duck Comics, where it was discovered that he was an uncle of Donald's. According To Don Rosa, he married a sister of Scrooge McDuck's. Ludwig even went on to have his own--very short lived--comic book. Recently, Ludwig has received a resurgence having made many appearances on Disney's House of Mouse and Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, where his voice is now performed--as many of Frees' characters are--by brilliant voice actor Corey Burton, who is due his own Voice Actor Vriday soon.
So we wrap up this week-long introduction to the Duckiverse by saluting Paul Frees an Ludwig von Drake, two of it's most funny and charming citizens. Now that I have this intro out here I look forward to more discussions of Duckburg, St. Canard, and and the crazy characters of Disney's Duckiverse.
Okay, today is a post I have been saving for some time. This is the post about my favorite Duckiverse character and my favorite animated TV series of all time: Darkwing Duck. What can I say about Darkwing Duck, one of the wittiest, smartest written cartoon shows of all time. As I rewatch episodes as an adult, I constantly find myself asking the question, “This show was supposed to be for kids?” The comedy is so sharp and the storytelling so great that much of it must have been lost on me as a kid. Although I loved it even then. The broad characters and imaginative storylines kept me engrossed then. The obscure references and fast-pace dialogue keeps me laughing now.
For those that don’t know, Darkwing Duck was a show that came on Saturday mornings and as a part of the famed weekday afternoon programming block known as The Disney Afternoon. The show was created by brilliant animation writer and director Tad Stones, and stared one of my favorite voice actors Jim Cummings as the title character. While the show did feature crossover characters like Gizmo Duck and Launchpad McQuack, Tad Stones is adamant that the show was not a spin off. It was a totally separate show in the same universe.
The show is at the same time parody of and an homage to campy comic book characters from the sixties and seventies as well as the fabulous radio dramas of the forties and fifties. Darkwing’s famous catchphrase, “I am the terror that flaps in the night; I am the winged scourge that pecks at your nightmares; I am Darkwing Duck,” is a play on the catchphrases of characters like The Shadow’s “Who knows what evil lurks I the hearts of men? The Shadow knows.” And so entrenched in comic book conventions was the show, that Tad Stones would often say in story meetings when discussing episodes, “Pitch me the comic book cover.”
The thing that appeals to me is that Darkwing is a “super hero” who isn’t terribly good at it, but has made this his calling in life, so is really passionate about it. He also has kind of a snarky, sarcastic sense of humor about him. He will never go after a bad guy without a quippy one liner. He such an endearing and funny anti-hero.
It doesn’t get much funnier or more original in the Duckiverse for me than Darkwing Duck. And it holds up too. So much so in fact that I now carry around literally every episode on my phone. I can watch DW and his cohorts anywhere anytime.
And just to bring it full circle, Boom Studios began running a Darkwing Duck comic book last year, which began as a four part run, but then was so popular it became an ongoing series. Ian Brill who writes the comic does Darkwing’s fans proud in my opinion. He’s captured the sense of humor and style very well. And just like with the TV series, though it is considered to be “for kids,” it’s definitely got an edge to it that I think adults can appreciate. Really great, great stuff.
I can’t really think an ending that segues nicely into a DW catchphrase, so I’ll just end with:
Today let’s talk about the animated series that take place in the Duckiverse. First is the DuckTales, which chronicles the adventures of Scrooge McDuck, popular character from the comics, as he is put in charge of his great-nephews Huey, Dewey, and Louie after their Uncle Donald joins the Navy.
For some reason, though Scrooge is the richest duck in the world, he is constantly going on adventures to gain even more riches. What a prophetic vision of capitalism of the 2000s. The riches usually come in the form of ancient or historical and sometimes mystical treasures. It’s kind of like Indiana Jones with tail feathers.
There is a lot of great comedy in the show and it’s a really fun spin on the adventure story genre, which has always been one of my favorites. The show saw the addition of new characters like Fenton Crackshell/Gizmo Duck and Launchpad McQuack, it also saw the return of some of the favorite Barks characters like Gladstone Gander, Gyro Gearloose, and the nephews. Although, the kids have way less supervision than they probably should in dangerous old mines or Egyptian tombs.
The show is tons of fun, and one that holds up in my book. The jokes are great and silly, and the storytelling pretty impressive for a kid’s show. It even spun off it's own feature length theatrically released movie: DuckTales The Movie - Treasure of the Lost Lamp.
The second animated series, I will discuss in tomorrow’s post. There's just to much to say about it for just one post.
Two names we could not continue this discussion without mentioning are Carl Barks and Don Rosa, two names synonymous with the Disney Ducks. Barks is the Father of the Duckiverse. He began as an in-betweener at the Disney Studio in 1935, whose unit was responsible for cartoon shorts starring Disney's latest popular character Donald Duck and worked on several cartoons for the studio before he quit to work as a comic artist. In 1943, Barks would be asked back to work on a new comic book line starring Donald Duck. The first story was called The Victory Garden, and would be the first of over five hundred stories that Barks would create over the course of three decades. Barks would give Donald his Uncle Scrooge, his nephews, Magica De Spell, Flintheart Glomgold, Gyro Gearloose, and dozens more. The universe that Barks created would later go on to be the inspiration for the animated TV series Ducktales. While he worked for many years annonymously, as most did at Disney, after the 1960's word had gotten out that the man that fans referred to as "the Good Duck Artist" was in fact Carl Barks. Barks never officially retired, but his out put slowed down throughout the nineties, and he passed away in 2000 at the age of 99. But his legacy lives on through his wonderful and funny duck characters.
Ode to the Disney Ducks
They ride tall ships to the far away,
and see the long ago.
They walk where fabled people trod,
and Yetis trod the snow.
They meet the folks who live on stars,
and find them much like us,
With food and love and happiness
the things they most discuss.
The world is full of clans and cults
abuzz as angry bees,
And Junior Woodchucks snapping jeers
at Littlest Chickadees.
The ducks show us that part of life
is to forgive a slight.
That black eyes given in revenge
keep hatred burning bright.
So when our walks in sun or shade
pass graveyards filled by wars,
It's nice to stop and read of ducks
whose battles leave no scars.
To read of ducks who parody
our vain attempts at glory,
They don't exist, but somehow leave
us glad we bought their story.
-Carl Barks 1999
Don Rosa began work on the duck characters in the mid 1980's. Rosa, was actually not a trained artists, but rather actually has a degree in civil engineering which brought about his signature drawing style of the ducks. Rosa had been of fan of Barks and the Donald duck comics since he was a kid and was quite excited to work on the Scrooge McDuck stories. Rosa would go on to create elaborate adventures for Scrooge, partnering him with other characters from Carl Barks' Duckiverse. His most famous storyline is probably The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck. The stories that Rosa created would later serve as inspiration for the Ducktales TV series as well as Darkwing Duck.
Though not quite household names in the world of comic book fandom, Carl Barks and Don Rosa are the Godfathers of the Disney Duckiverse, whose characters and stories have entertained million over the years.
As promised, today begins a week long theme to the Cartoon Guru Blog. Some may know, but many do not, that not only am I your Cartoon Guru, I also happen to be one of the world’s foremost experts on a very specific niche of Cartoondom: The Disney Duck Universe, or as it is often affectionately called – The Duckiverse.
What am I talking about when I talk about the Duckiverse? I am talking about the fictional world inhabited by Donald Duck, Uncle Scrooge, Huey, Dewey, Louie, Professor Ludwig von Drake, and on and on. Essentially, this is a world created by Carl Barks for the Donald Duck and Uncle Scrooge Comics in the middle part of the 20th Century.
The stories usually take place in or around the fictional cities of St. Canard or Duckberg in the fictional US State of Calisota. Though adventures have been known to extend across the globe and even into space. There’s lots of fun history of Duckberg here on Wikipedia.
The Duckiverse includes stories from Donald Duck Comics, Uncle Scrooge Comics, the animated eeries DuckTales and Darkwing Duck as well as a host of spin-off comics and series. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who knows more about the Duckiverse than I, and so this week we will explore the Duck-billed Denizens of the Disney Duckiverse.
When I said a week-long theme of posts next week. I meant next week. I forgot this week I am traveling most of the time. In the meantime, here are some fun cartoons about travel:
Okay, I just realized that this blog could just be called "Voice Actor Vridays." I hadn't noticed that the last three posts are all Voice Actor Vridays posts. Meaning that I haven't posted anything else in weeks. I apologize. I know that you need your cartoon sage, and I feel I have let you down. So next week I promise a cool week-long theme once again, as people seem to like those.
But this week, we pay homage to another voice acting great, and this guy is truly one of the greats. Daws Butler did about half of the voices for Hanna-Barbera characters, and Daws gets a lot of credit. The other half were done by a fella who is often a little less credited: Don Messick.
Messick started out as a ventriloquist, and did pretty well at it for a while. Then one day, Bill Thompson became unavailable to do the voice of Droopy. Daws Butler, who did a lot of voices for MGM cartoons, suggested to Tex Avery that he try out his pal Don Messick. His work there led to his job with Daws on the Ruff and Reddy Show, and that was the beginning of a Messick and Butler's decades-long voice acting partnership.
Over the years Messick went on to voice some of the most memorable characters of all time like Scooby-Doo, Boo boo Bear, Ranger Smith, Mutley, Astro, and Papa Smurf.
In addition to being a great and talented voice actor, by all accounts he was also an all-around great guy. So here's to Don Messick on this Voice Actor Vriday.
In honor of Seth MacFarlane's reboot of The Flintstones, today's saluted voice actor is Alan Reed, the voice of Fred Flintstone. A brilliant character actor, Reed got his start on stage in New York appearing in many Broadway productions. From there he moved into radio working as announcer and actor on such shows as Duffy's Tavern, Life of Reilly, and The Shadow.
Eventually, he moved to Los Angeles, where he could be seen as a regular guest star on practically every show. He was one of those character actors of the fifties and sixties that you'd see all the time and go, "Oh, it's that guy."
Nothing would make him more famous, though, than that burly-sounding, gravely voice coming out of Fred Flintstone. That was his shining moment; he even created the catch phrase "Yabba Dabba Doo" for Fred. He also provided the voice of Boris in Lady and the Tramp.
I know. I know. As if I don't write enough about Walt Disney. But I have been working a lot on my book lately, so I have Walt on the brain at the moment. Walt Disney was certainly an innovator in many regards and contributed to the legacy of animation in innumerable ways, but one that really seems to go unmentioned often is that Walt was the first voice actor, at least in animation.
Cartoons didn't have sound before Mickey Mouse came along, and when Mickey started to talk, Walt himself provided the voice. Walt did Mickey's voice for almost twenty years, and was the first person to provide the voice for an animated character.
So this VAV is is a tribute to yet another feather in the cap of pioneering achievement of Walt Disney.
CG
Tuesday, May 10, 2011
The fate of the ASIFA Hollywood Animation Archive is in jeopardy due to funding issues. Since I moved to Hollywood--before I even had any friends here--the Archive has been one of my favorite places to go. I have volunteered to help cataloging, and the blog has become as much a part of my daily routine as my coffee.
There is no other resource in the entire world dedicated to the art and history of animation, illustration and cartooning like the Animation Archive. It saddens me that we may lose this institution.
This week, May 1 to be exact, Spongebob Squarepants celebrated his 12th year on the air. In honor of this anniversary I decided on today's Voice Actor Vridays to salute the voice of Sponegbob Squarepants: Tom Kenny.
Tom Kenny is the closest thing we have today working today to a Mel Blanc or Daws Butler. I personally think that Tom is the best voice actor working today. If you listen to Tom as Spongebob and Tom as the Ice King on Adventure Time and Tom as Heffer on Rocko's Modern Life you absolutely cannot even tell it's the same guy. He is tremendously versatile and talented. I remember back when I was a freshman in college, I was working at Nickelodeon, and he came in to a promo for Spongebob. I met him and told him that I wanted to be a voice actor. He invited me to lunch and answered questions and offered advice.
Tom has been a sketch performer, and had a memorable stint on the cult sketch show Mr. Show. He also had a successful career as a stand-up comedian, but he actually started out as a musician, and continues to be musically prolific. In fact, the song "The Best Day Ever" on Spongebob was written by Tom.
Since my first meeting with him as a college kid, I have had the chance to hang out with Tom many times, and not only is he extremely talented, he is also a really nice guy. So here's to this week's spotlight voice actor: Tom Kenny.
Most people who know me know that while I am an encyclopedia of cartoon knowledge, I know precious little about comic books. I know that seems incongruous with who I am, but I never got on board with comics as a kid, I didn't know anyone who liked them, and so I just never read them.
The only two comic characters I know anything about are Spiderman and Batman because when I was a kid, there were cartoon shows starring them. Now, not only are many of my friends comic book nerds, but my wife may be chief among them. As they are quick to point out the cartoons are almost nothing like the books, so I have a lot to learn.
While I don't read comics, I do really enjoy learning the stories. I think the story-telling is fascinating and equatable to Greek mythology in its epicness (I'm 99% sure I made that word up). It makes me very happy to see now that there are many new cartoon series out that are bringing these great comic characters to life for me. I really enjoy watching these animated versions of the comics and then discussing the differences with my comic savvy pals. This one looks really cool: the new Green Lantern series. Here's the peek that the public was treated to at a recent comic convention:
Another one that I have been enjoying recently is The Spectacular Spider-man. I enjoy Spider-man quite a lot because above all he is funny. Stan Lee says Spider-man is the Groucho Marx of the comic world. Groucho Marx. Comic World. Done. And this show brings back a lot of the comedy and quipping that the movies seemed to forget. Also the theme song is pretty cool and is a nice nod to the old theme song from the sixties.
The Hellboy animated series is another one that is pretty fun. I enjoyed the movies directed by Guillermo Del Toro very much, and the series brings back the actors from the live action movie to be the voice cast. It is pretty spectacular. Plus any character whose main villain is supernatural Nazis is an automatic win.
Finally, my favorite relatively recent comic book based animated series is Batman: The Brave and the Bold. Batman is probably my favorite comic book character of all time, and this show is one of my favorite versions of Batman that I have ever seen. Now, I only know Batman from the animated series and the old Adam West TV show, so what I like about Batman is the fun campy silliness of it. The darker versions are nice also, don't get me wrong. I love Tim Burton's and Chris Nolan's versions, but the funny, ridiculous take is the tops for my money. Do yourself a favor and watch the first couple seasons of it. Diedrich Bader is great as Batman, and Jon Di Maggio as Aquaman is pretty fantastic. Here's a taste:
And just so you know this is probably the longest I will ever talk about comic books on this blog, ever. I have exhausted all of my knowledge.
I have to admit that my executions were not that high going into the premiere of the new Looney Tunes Show last night, but when I watched it I had several laugh-out-loud moments. Granted there are a couple of cheap jokes in there also, but there are several really cool, smart jokes in there. However, I still maintain my stance that it doesn't really feel like the Looney Tunes. It's a funny show with characters that happen to look like the Looney Tunes.
Daffy Duck comes the closest. With his selfish, me-me-me take on everything, he really does come close to the mark. At least closest to the mark of the 60's-80's Daffy that I really love. They captured Daffy's voice and sense of humor pretty well. Even his voice is a fairly true to Mel Blanc's. I'm sure you're aware that this makes me very happy, as Daffy is one of my favorite cartoon--and even film-characters of all time.
For as much as Daffy is on the mark, however, Bugs is off the mark. They seemed to have turned him into an exasperated straight man for Daffy's antics. Where the old Bugs would egg Daffy on with a wink to the camera, this Bugs rolls his eyes in frustration like Liz Lemon with her co-workers.
All in all, though I enjoyed the show. If you're looking for classic Looney Tunes, this is not the show foir you, but if you are looking for a pretty damn funny cartoons show--a rarity in itself, these days--I say check out The Looney Tunes Show.
Hello, everyone. As I have mentioned, I have been too busy to write anything recently, but that doesn't mean that things haven't been happening. So this week, I'm going to be doing what I call the Cartoon Guru Time Machine, so I can catch you up on some of the things that have happened over the last couple of weeks. Review of Gnomeo and Juliet:
I saw Gnomeo and Juliet a few Saturdays ago, and it was about as good or bad as I expected it to be. The movie is obviously not for me. One of the things I hate is when reviewers write about a movie as if it is trying to be The Godfather and falling way short. This movie is not trying to do that. This is a dumb movie for kids, and I can see where little kids would like it a lot. There are plenty of slapstick gags and funny voices.
The one things that really irked me about this movie were the references. There were "pop" culture references to make the movie hip and edgy. Like references to Forrest Gump, Brokeback Mountain, and Lassie. You know all those things that are fresh in kids minds. There was even hip slang converted to gnome-ness, like "Who's your gnomey?" Who's your gnomey, for shit's sake! And the guy who was in charge of throwing in the "subtle" Shakespeare references--and in case you are as keen on subtlety as that guy is, there are quotes around "subtle"--must have been patting himself one the back up one side and down the other. So there were so many dumb forced Shakespeare puns, I literally said "Oh, come on!" out loud once.
Also the movie is an Elton John musical. Did you know that? I didn't, and I don't think Elton John did either because the lyric changes were crammed into the melody like present day Elton John wearing the 70's "Crocodile Rock" outfit.
I know it sounds like I hated it, but I didn't. It was absolutely fine for what it was. It neither exceeded nor fell short of my expectations. And Jim Cummings once again proves that a good voice actor and play well and have a good time with even a mediocre script.
30 Rock on NBC has created a web exclusive short cartoon series called Jack Donaghy Executive Superhero. You can learn more about it on the website here, and this is the first episode:
I always like it when Brian Williams acts silly, but over all, kind of a snooze.
This leaves me wondering why NBC keeps toying with animation. Between this and Community's recent animated tag:
Or Community's stop-motion Christmas special.
Could this means that NBC might be open to the idea of a prime time animated series? It would be nice to see a cartoon series on a network other than Fox. The Fox shows are pretty great, but cartoons in prime time on more than one channel would be awesome.
Chuck Jones once said, "A lot of people say June Foray is like a female Mel Blanc. I say Mel Blanc is a male June Foray." June Foray is probably the most prolific voice actor of all time with a career spanning over 65 years. At the age of 93 she still performs voices that she originated over a half a century ago. Voices like Looney Tunes' Granny and Witch Hazel, Rocky J. Squirrel and Natasha from Rocky and Bullwinkle. So a part of the legacy of animation is June Foray that he memoir is entitled Did You Grow Up with me Too?
Here is the trailer to a documentary about her:
Like with Daws and Mel Blanc, there's not much I can say about her that hasn't already been said. If you want to learn more about June, here's a really nice biography of her written for Animation World Network.
She's a brilliant voice actor and quite a pioneer in the industry I am always happy to be a part of. Here's to June Foray, this week's spotlight voice actor.
As your Cartoon Guru, not only do I write about Cartoon History and do voice over for cartoons, I also pitch cartoon series around town. Most of them--I like to think--are pretty good. Some of them are a great big fail.
One such idea that just went nowhere was this one: Abe Lincoln Trying to See a Magic Eye Picture.
So MIPTV is going on now in Cannes. For those that don't know:
MIPTV Media Market is an event which takes place annually in Cannes, using the facilities and infrastructure which the town has developed over the years to host other important events such as the Cannes Film Festival amongst other events.
It is essentially a content market for co-producing, buying, selling, financing and distributing entertainment content. It provides the people involved in the TV, film, digital and audiovisual content, production and distribution industry a market conference and networking forum to discover future trends and trade content rights on a global level.
Full disclosure: that explanation is taken directly from Wikipedia because, quite frankly, I didn't feel like coming up with my own explanation for what it is.
Appearing at MIPTV with many other media is animation. Most of the time the shows appearing are stuff I have never heard of before. So, I present to you my:
Top Ten Favorite Animated Series at MIPTV Based on Title Only:
10) Galactik Football 3 - Great, now I have to try to find the first two seasons on Netflix.
9) Monkey Business - (Crossing fingers and closing eyes.) Please be about a monkey with an office job! Please be about a monkey with an office job!
8) The Small Giant - You mean..."the person?"
7) The ABC Monsters - The picture in the MIP Guide is of monsters literally shaped like letters of the alphabet. Little on the nose, aren't we?
6) Iconicles - What?
5) Rocket Monkeys - 'Nuff said. Sold!
4) The Adventures of Compass and Alarm Clock - Yes, it is exactly what you're thinking.
3) Justin Time - Get out.
2) Kung Fu Chicken - Nothing not to like about those three words together.
1) Animation Hotline - Uh...It can't be just me who thinks that sounds inappropriate, right?
In all this talk of cartoon commercial spokespeople, breakfast cereal cartoon commercials, and the like, there is a certain character who (whom?), I'm sure to you, has been conspicuously left off. The character I am referring to is Cap'n Crunch. Well, the truth is I have been specifically saving the Cap'n for today so I could spotlight him as a part of the new weekly segment Voice Actor Vridays: The Great Segment with the Stupid Name. (That's the new tag line I'm using.)
Cap'n Horatio Magellan Crunch first appeared in 1963 as a breakfast cereal, and Jay Ward Productions, who you may remember as the creators of Rocky and Bullwinkle and George of the Jungle, was hired to create an animate the mascot for the cereal. From 1963 through the present Cap'n Crunch has been getting into thirty to sixty second adventures in animated commercials, whether it was fighting "the Soggies" or matching blades with the pirate Jean LaFoote, voiced by Bill Scott (voice of Bullwinkle J. Moose). Cap'n Crunch's adventures also regularly appeared in comic book adventures that were available in the cereal box.
Cap'n Crunch is a really fun and truly iconic character of cartoon advertising, but one of the things that makes him special is that he was voiced by the legendary Daws Butler, and Daws is the spotlight of today's Voice Actor Vriday: The Great Segment with a Stupid Name.
If Mel Blanc is the name that is immediately synonymous with voice acting outside of the industry, Daws Butler is that name inside the industry. Daws Butler is the voice actor's voice actor. I respect the hell out of Mel Blanc, but Daws, along with Thurl Ravenscroft and Paul Frees, was who I wanted to be like when I decided I wanted to go into this business. In seventh grade I had pictures of all three of them pinned to my wall--only seventh grader ever who did that, I imagine, but--they were who I wanted to be like.
Daws Butler was the voice of most of the characters in the Hanan-Barbera catalog: Huckleberry Hound, Snagglepuss, Yogi Bear, Jinx the Cat, Quick Draw McGraw, Wally Gator, Hokey Wolf, Elroy Jetson, Cogswell Cogs, Loopy De Loop, Peter Potamus, among many others. He also provided the voice of several characters in Jay Ward's Fractured Fairy Tales and Aesop and Son, although due to his contract with Hanna-Barbera, he received no screen credit for those roles.
In the 1980's Daws Butler began a voice acting workshop in Hollywood, CA, after many people suggested that he share his secrets of the business with young people wishing to get started in voice acting. That workshop has become legendary, and many of the top voice actors of today like Corey Burton (Captain Hook and Count Dooku), Nancy Cartwright (Bart Simpson), and Bob Bergen (Porky Pig) got their start in Daws' class.
One other thing that makes Daws pretty special is that he is universally described by those who knew him as one of the kindest people you could ever meet. I was going to write an extensive biography of Daws here in the blog, but there are many great places to learn about him. Here's a nice bio written by one of his sons, and here are several articles written by his friends.
And finally, this video was a part of the recent release of the first season of The Huckleberry Hound Show. It has a lot of great insight into Daws and his life and career by those who knew him. So here is this week's spotlight Voice Actor: The Legendary, The One and Only Daws Butler.
So we have covered some of the great cartoon advertisements of the 50's through 80's so far here in this week's discussion, but it would seem that cartoon advertisements on on the way down. While there certainly has been a decline over the years in animated spokespeople, I certainly don't think that they are in danger of disappearing. Not only are many of the animated characters from the past still around like Tony, Toucan Sam, Mr. Clean, etc., but companies continue to create new animated characters to sell their products.
Just look at ads for insurance:
And several pharmaceutical companies have animated characters in their ads:
While the trend seems to be a switch to computer animated characters over traditionally animated characters--sound familiar--I feel like the animated spokesman is not going anywhere any time soon. They could be used for this or this or this or this or...
While breakfast cereal reigns supreme in the realm of cartoon advertisements, there are many products that feature popular cartoon spokesmen. Today we'll look at some of the most memorable and interesting characters from vintage television commercials.
Bucky Beaver Though Bucky Beaver is iconic on his own--one of those characters who is synonymous with the product he advertised: Ipana Toothpaste--he is interesting to me for another reason. Many people, especially those who grew up when he was on the air, remember Bucky, and in the musical Grease they even parody his famous "brusha, brusha, brusha" song, but many people don't realize that Bucky Beaver is actually a Disney character.
Long forgotten by most, the Disney company had its own commercial production division back in the 1950's. One of the chief designers there was Tom Oreb, who designed Bucky and is most known at Disney--and in the animation community--as one of the people responsible for the "cartoon modern" style of animation popular in the 1950's. Most memorable from the cartoons of UPA, the style was implemented at Disney in 101 Dalmatians; Toot, Whistle, Plunk, and Boom; and even a strange looking Mickey Mouse:
Bucky Beaver, voiced by Jimmie Dodd (who also wrote that famous jingle), helped to make Ipana the most popular toothpaste in America, through the 1960's, although you wouldn't know it today.
Charlie Tuna Like Tony the Tiger, Charlie the Tuna was created by the Leo Burnett Co., and gave way to a slogan that has become a part of the American vernacular. Starkist Tuna's "Sorry Charlie" has been referenced in countless TV shows and movies. Charlie is also a remarkably fun character, kind of an early hipster in his fishing hat and horn-rimed glasses. Charlie was voiced by popular stage actor Herschel Bernardi and animated by DePatie -Freleng, who you may remember as creating the Pink Panther and animating some Looney Tunes and Dr. Seuss specials.
Mr. Clean Proctor and Gamble's Mr. Clean character first appeared in 1958 and has become an icon in advertising over the years. I really only mention him because in recent appearances, the use of CG animation has made him look weird.
Also, I'm pretty sure he's gay, and I don't have anyone on this list that is yet, so I thought I'd diversify.
These are some of my favorites because they have interesting animators, histories, or sexual preferences, but if these aren't enough for you, you may want to revisit the Keebler Elves or the Jolly Green Giant. (Also all gay.)
Today in our look into the world of cartoon commercials we are gong to cover the market that started it all: Breakfast Cereal, specifically, breakfast cereal aimed at children. "Can't get enuffa that Golden Crisp...," "Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs," "Follow your nose," "Theeeeey're GRRREAT!" The slogans for these products are an advertiser's dream. Not only are they memorable, they have etched themselves in the stone of pop culture, but how did it all get started?
Most companies were sponsors of radio programs throughout the thirties and forties, but as the medium of television grew in popularity, advertisers decided to follow the market. When they made this switch, they decided that animated forms of advertising would reach children best because children were already watching cartoons. Post Sugar Crisp cereal spent a great deal of money to have Bill Tytla create an ad for them in 1949. You might remember Bill Tytla from his work on this or this or this. The ad quickly became a phenomenon with children repeating the slogan and talking about the ad featuring the three bears on playgrounds all over America. And the landscape of Saturday morning television would never be the same.
Let us visit now some of the greatest animated cereal spokesmen past and present.
Franken Berry and Count Chocula A part of General Mills "monster breakfast cereal" line, these guys first appeared in 1971, and were later followed by Boo Berry and Fruit Brute.
Snap, Crackle, and Pop These guys started out as radio characters and are supposed to be old gnomes of some kind. When they became animated children's characters, they were aged down of course. Here's an old ad featuring these guys:
Sugar Bear First appeared in the sixties to advertise Post Sugar Crisp Cereal, which later became Golden Crisp. His voice was originally an impression of Dean Martin, and into the nineties he became even more of a hipster, what with his ironic love of cereal.
Sonny the Cuckoo Bird Originally created in 1964, this manic bird is constantly trying to do things that with take his attention off his addiction to Cocoa Puffs. Here's one such instance from the early eighties.
Trix Rabbit For the love of Christ, it's been 57 years since this guy first appeared to advertise Trix, can we please let this guys have some cereal?
Toucan Sam What a terrific character. I remember begging my mom to buy me the cereal with a cut-out of Sam's nose on the back. All you had to supply was your own rubber band to tie to it, and you could "Follow your nose" just like Sam. Originally voiced by Mel Blanc when he appeared in 1963, he was later replaced by Paul Frees to give him a high class English accent. Currently he is voiced by Maurice LaMarche.
Mel Blanc
Paul Frees
Maurice LaMarche
Tony the Tiger In 1952 an ad man at the Leo Burnett Co. named Eugene Kolkey, was set with the task of creating a new character to advertise a new cereal from the Kellogg's account called Kellogg's Sugar Frosted Flakes. What he created was possibly the best known and most beloved cartoon spokesman of all time: Tony the Tiger. Full disclosure, I may be a bit biased, as Tony was voiced for 5 decades by Thurl Ravenscroft--a man who inspired me and is one of the reasons I wanted to be a voice actor. I have a little Tony toy sitting on my desk right now. Although Thurl's depiction of Tony s the most recognizable, Thurl wasn'tthe original voice of Tony. He was originally voiced by brilliant character actor Dallas McKennon, who is known for many things--not the least of which is his safety spiel on the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad at Disney Theme Parks. When Thurl passed away in 2005, he was replaced by veteran announcer Lee Marshall.
Tony is still going strong today, although over the years he has changed in appearance from a simple cartoony tiger, to a more brawny, extreme sports athlete. He's appeared with many celebs in commercials--both animated and live action alike. Here's a little retrospective on Tony's career that I think is pretty good.
Good? It's GGGGRRRRREEEEAAAT!
There are far too many cereal spokespeople to cover in just one post, But Tony, Sam, Sonny and the rest are stand-outs. But just in case you haven't had enough, maybe you remember Lucky the Leprechaun, Buzz Bee, Dig 'Em Frog, etc., etc., etc.
This week’s Cartoon Guru is sponsored by...Commercials! I am one of the few fans of cartoons who really enjoys the cartoon spokesmen of commercials. Now of course there are famous cartoon characters who also did commercials, but I am talking about those members of Cartoondom whose entire source of fame is commercials. Characters like Tony the Tiger, Charlie Tuna, Toucan Sam, and others.
I was speaking with the head of the ASIFA Hollywood’s Animation Archive Steve Worth a couple of weeks ago, and he has a huge collection of animation artwork from commercials because he happens to like them a lot as well. And back when he was collecting them people thought he was crazy. While other people were paying top dollar for artwork from the Disney features or Looney Tunes, he was purchasing Cap’n Crunch, the Jolly Green Giant, and more. I thought that was so neat because I thought I was the only one with an affinity for these characters.
The first image ever broadcast was Felix the Cat, so television and cartoons have always had a special relationship, but cartoon commercials reigned supreme as the most iconic advertising spokespeople for many years. The first cartoon commercial was broadcast in September 1941, when barely 5000 TV sets were in homes. The cartoon character The Botany Lamb was produced to promote Botany Mills ties. Though seven spots were produced for this original campaign, the character its self lasted through 1948.
As television caught on across the country more companies and advertisers went the way of cartoon advertising. Unlike with radio, images could be used to sell products, and these cartoon shorts were not only visually stimulating, but they could also allow spokespeople to do anything that could be imagined. Though the work was not theatrical quality animation, many of these ads had budgets ranging from $3,000 to $5,000. This was top money for the time and was used to attract top talents like Jay Ward and even Disney, and voiced by the greatest in the business like Paul Frees and June Foray. Art Babbitt, who created Goofy, and Grim Natwick, who created Betty Boop and is widely respected as one of the greatest animators of all time, both animated the Ajax Elves:
Over the years, the number of advertisers who used cartoon characters to sell products expanded astoundingly. Coke, Sprite, Plymouth, De Soto, Tide, Alka Seltzer, Skippy Peanut Butter, and all manner of breakfast cereals were just a few of the most popular advertisements. Recently, however, the trend has been to move away from animated characters focusing on live-action comedy or special effects.
But these animated commercial characters have become an indelible part of the collective consciousness. Ask anyone you know, and everyone will know where the Keebler Elves live or what you go for Cocoa Puffs. Part of the reason that these characters are so etched in our brains is the nature of the medium of advertising. Cartoons used for advertising are unique because they appear onscreen for a minute or two at the most. Because of this small window of time, they have to be as packed with entertainment and information as they can. The massive volume of commercials that you see also plays a part, as each needs to be as unique and captivating as possible. Also, you often see the same commercial many times before it is replaced with another spot.
And it isn’t just the information, it's also the way in which the information is presented to you. Cartoons utilize sight and sound, but in a way that is different from watching a TV show or an animated feature or short at the movies. In these little snippets, you are not meant to just react to what you see, but participate. These lovable characters ask you to go out and buy their products and then use (eat, play with, clean with, etc.) what you bought. They encourage you to be a full player in their world. This complete “sensory inclusion” makes cartoon commercials an unforgettable part of a television experience, and seeing them as a child adds an element of nostalgia as well.
Though some of the cartoon advertisements no longer fit in to what society finds acceptable to be on television, like animated Kool Cigarettes ads or Hamm’s Beer ads featuring the Beer Bear, most of these cartoon characters are funny, charming, or have otherwise won their way into our hearts. So this week on the Cartoon Guru, I am going to pay tribute to some of these great characters. We’ll get back to your regularly scheduled Cartoon Guru after these messages.
I have decided to institute a new segment on the blog spotlighting voice actors. Not only am I a voice actor myself, but of the many blogs out there about cartoons and animation, few of them pay tribute to the great voice actors in animation. So I am creating a segment that I'm calling: Voice Actor Vridays. (I know it's dumb, but when you have your own animation blog, you can name segments whatever you want.)
To kick off the segment I think it is only appropriate that I showcase possibly the most famous and most respected voice actor of all time. This is a man whose resume reads like a who's who of the most beloved cartoon characters of all time; a man whose name is synonymous with cartoon voices. I'm speaking, of course, of Mel Blanc. So well known is he, in fact, that when I tell people outside of the industry that I do voice over, the first response is usually, "Oh, you mean like Mel Blanc?" The voice of characters like Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Pepe Le Pew, Porky Pig, Sylvester, Tweety, Barney Rubble, Mr. Spacely, Heathcliff, Woody Woodpecker, Foghorn Leghorn, Yosemite Sam, Marvin the Martian, and Private Snafu to name a few, it's hard to find a cartoon from animation's golden age without Mel Blanc's voice in it somewhere.
Mel Blanc was born in 1908, San Francisco, California. From an early age, Mel was interested in music and taught himself to play the sousaphone, the violin and the bass. He parlayed this into a career as a radio musician, and while working on a radio program called The Hoot Owls, he began making regular appearances as various characters on the program. Then in 1933 he was given the opportunity to host his own radio show in Portland called the Cobweb and Nuts Show. The budget for the show was so limited that he had to provide the voices for most of the characters himself, and it was here that he began perfecting the skills that would make him famous.
Throughout the thirties, Mel freelanced on radio programs all over Los Angeles. He became very popular on the Jack Benny program, and one of his most famous characters was a shy Mexican character named Sy. Here is a version of that routine recreated for the Jack Benny television Show:
In 1937, Leon Schlessinger hired Mel to provide voices for the Warner Bros. cartoons. This was to be the beginning of a very long and fruitful relationship. Being well known for his hiccupping drunk character, he was to provide the voice of a drunken bull in the cartoon Picador Porky. Then he took over as the voice of Porky and originated Daffy Duck in Porky’s Duck Hunt.
Blanc continued working with Warner Bros for the next fifty years, and also with Universal and Hanna-Barbera. He even did a voice for Disney in Pinocchio as Gideon the cat, which Walt later decided would be funnier as a mute character, so all that remains of that performance are the drunken hiccups. People have speculated over the years that this caused a rift with Disney, and that Mel refused to do any voices for Disney after that, which is not true. Blanc was a regular on the Disney radio program and can be heard as Uncle Orville and the pet bird on the Carousel of Progress attraction at Walt Disney World.
Despite his many characterizations over the years, no character was more beloved or more endearing than a quick-witted, carrot-chomping gray rabbit named Bugs Bunny. That was never more evident than in 1961, when Mel was in a terrible car accident that nearly killed him and put him in a coma for three weeks. Thousands of get-well cards poured in from saddened fans from all over the world, many of which were addressed only to “Bugs Bunny, Hollywood, USA,” according to Mel’s autobiography. Though things looked bleak, one doctor had a bit of inspiration. The doctor walked to Mel’s bedside and asked, “How are you today, Bugs Bunny?” Eyes still closed, Blanc answered feebly in Bugs’ voice, “Okay, Doc.” Blanc thus credited Bugs with saving his life.
Mel Blanc died in 1989 leaving a legacy of characters that millions of people have enjoyed over the years. His tombstone in Hollywood Forever Cemetery appropriately reads, “That’s All Folks.”
And here I leave you with a clip of Mel on Johnny Carson describing how he creates some of his characters:
To close out our week of music I leave you with two of the greatest animated tributes to music. The first is a highly stylized and delightful short called Toot, Whistle Plunk, and Boom, a part of the educational Adventures in Music Series. The short won the Academy Award for Best Animated Short in 1984. This one is directed by Ward Kimball is is very indicative of his more stylized and less realistic cartooning approach.
The second is a featurette produced by Disney in 1962 called A Symposium on Popular Songs. As you know, Ludwig Von Drake is one of my favorite cartoon characters of all time--probably in the top three. This featurette is written by X Atencio, starring Paul Frees as Ludwig Von Drake, music by the Sherman Brothers, and directed by Bill Justice. It's as if they made it just for me.
The featurette was nominated for and a Academy Award for Best Animated Short, and features some really great original songs that both parody and pay tribute to 20th century music.
Today is a tribute to cartoon music in television. This is a category that is far too big for me to cover in post, so I'm sure I will miss something. If there's a particular song or show that you would like to recognize, please post it in the comments.
Television animation is rife with music. There are many shows in which the music is almost a character in the show, such as Animaniacs. The writers and performers were lucky on this show. Since the entire Warner Bros. orchestra was sitting around with not much to do, the show was given access to them. As such, Animaniacs features tons of musical numbers and is underscored nearly every second. Here's one of my favorite musical numbers from the show:
But when it comes to educational musical television, the grandaddy of them all is Schoolhouse Rock! Animated segments that teach children all about things from grammar to math to political science. This one is probably the most iconic, and one of my favorites:
Partially I like it because it features jazz man and comedian Jack Sheldon, who you you might also remember as Louie the Lightning Bug on the old safety PSAs from the eighties.
You'd also be remiss in not mentioning The Simpsons for their contribution to animated television music. Alf Clausen and his orchestra have related many memorable songs for the show, but this one is my favorite. The last couple of seconds is probably my favorite moment in Simpsons history.
Spongebob Squarepants also has some great Musical moments. Tom Kenny and the Andy Paley orchestra are great with coming up with wacky little songs for the show. Though this is not one of the original songs, here is a great one:
And, of course, we cannot talk about television animation's music without talking about theme songs. I love theme songs. I have over 7 hours of theme songs in a playlist on my iTunes right now. They are so silly and fun. A little weird party trick I can do is to sing the them song to any show you can name. I have been tested, and always pass. But animated series tend to have really great theme songs especially. Here's a little playlist of some of the best from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's.
I leave you with the theme song to my favorite animated TV series of all time. But as I said at the beginning, if there is anything that has been left off that you think should be included in a TV Cartoon Music post, please post it in the comments or over at the Facebook Page.
Last week I talked about musical numbers in animated features using very strict guidelines for what constituted the list. I used more musical theatre standards for what a musical number is than film standards. So for today's post, I would like to include some feature animation sequences that couldn't necessarily fit into last week's list.
"The Sorcerer's Apprentice" from Fantasia
This is the mother of all musical animated features. I chose "Sorcerer's Apprentice" to showcase because it is quite nice and one of the few Mickey Mouse cartoons I actually like. But it could just as easily have been "Dance of the Hours" or "Night on Bald Mountain."
"Rhapsody in Blue" from Fantasia 2000
While we're talking about Fantasia, I might as well mention Fantasia 2000. On the whole, not a terribly great movie, but this sequence by Eric Goldberg based on the work of his hero Al Hirschfeld is quite brilliant. It's probably one of my favorites. Love the song, love the animation, love Hirschfeld. This one is right up my alley.
"The Circle of Life" from The Lion King
Technically probably fits more into the other category, but it didn't follow the rules of the other list, so I'll include it here.
"Pink Elephants on Parade" from Dumbo
Here's a nice little psychedelic piece from Dumbo. You either love this piece or you hate it. I personally think it's pretty cool.
Yellow Submarine
How could we mention psychedelia without this piece. I almost broke my rules last week and put this one on the other list. Here is the film in its entirety because I couldn't decide which one was best to include.
"When She Loved Me" from Toy Story 2
I know everyone thinks that I hate Pixar--not true--and that I hate Toy Story--also, not true--but if this number doesn't leave you a little choked up, there's something the matter with you. This is a little short film on its own.
"DiggaTunnah" from The Lion King 1 1/2
This is not great, and it certainly doesn't belong on a top anything in animation, but I really like this freakin' song.
"Worthless" from The Brave Little Toaster
Again, probably belongs on the musical number list, but not in the top ten, though it's quite chilling, and pretty creepy to watch when you're a little kid.
I could keep going and going with these, but you'd be watching clips all day. Like I have been. The point is that in animated features, music and action go hand in hand a lot more than in live action. In live action music can overpower the scene or work against the scene. In animation, the music and action work together symbiotically more often than not. It's a really cool thing to watch.
Side note: I know this list seems a little Disney heavy, but quite frankly the animated feature genre is a little Disney heavy. There haven't been many heavy hitters in the American animated feature racket until the last 20 years or so. I try to be even handed with showings from production companies, but what are you going to do?
If you tried to write about the history of cartoon music without mentioning Carl Stalling, the huge gap in your timeline would make it look as though for many years there was no music in cartoons. Stalling is unquestionably the seminal cartoon musician creating some of the most iconic scores in animation history.
Carl Stalling was from Missouri and at the age of 12 he was the pianist at the local silent movie theatre. From there he moved on to conducting his own orchestra in Kansas City. It was here that he met a young Walt Disney when Walt was making the Laugh-o-Grams. After the success of the synchronized sound in Steamboat Willie, Walt persuaded Carl to come out to Hollywood to create the score for Plane Crazy and Gallopin' Gaucho.
There was always friction between Walt and Carl over which element should inform the other. Should the action inform the music, or should the music inform the action? In a compromise, Walt offered a series of cartoons that would be completely informed by the music called Silly Symphonies. Carl would create the scores for the Silly Symphonies and the animators would animate, while in the Mickey Mouse cartoons, the gag and story men would create the story and then Carl would compose a score. Very quickly, the Silly Symphonies became just as popular as the Mickey Mouse cartoons, and The Flowers and the Trees became the first animated short in color as well as the first animated short to win the Academy Award for best animated short film.
After a couple years at Disney, the friction between Walt and Carl became too much to handle, and Carl left the Disney Studio. After freelancing for a while, Leon Schlesinger hired him to work on the Warner Bros. cartoons, and he remained there for twenty-two years. While at Warner Bros. he would create some of the most iconic musical scores of all time indelibly associating various pieces of classical music with cartoons.
Though many people enjoyed his punny musical scoring, director Chuck Jones did not, saying, 'He was a brilliant musician. But the quickest way for him to write a musical score was to simply look up some music that had the proper name. If there was a lady dressed in red, he'd always play "The Lady in Red". If somebody went into a cave, he'd play "Fingal's Cave"...I had a bee one time, and my God, if he didn't go and find a piece of music written in 1906 or something called "I'm a Busy Little Bumble Bee".'
Here are just a few of the great musical gags and animation scores of the brilliant Carl Stalling: For scenes at sea, the Spanish tune "Over the Waves"
For machinery, Raymond Scott's "Powerhouse"
For waking up, "Morning Mood"
For characters out driving, "In My Merry Oldsmobile"
For chase scenes, "The William Tell Overture"
Too many to include in one simple blog post. However, if you enjoy the work of Carl Stalling, check this out as well.
